Curse

Zehnchu · Jun 18, 2006, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

In all honesty, it is possible to program AI so that it is the Uber Player, the one that is better than... you!

It is possible to make it heal faster than any player, res more accurately, fight more intelligently, and not have "human error" like mashing the wrong key or forgetting to swap weapons.

But yes, as suggested in this thread, it's not in the best interests of the game to make it AI Wars. The AI is created to assist and to provide a viable companion, but not to supplant players who are real humans. (Pauses to consider: Are there "unreal" humans?

)

Guild Wars is a social game, and it encourages playing with others while making it entirely viable to play solo, if you wish. You have choices and those choices are pretty well balanced! The last thing we want to do is to make it the best choice of all to have a guild that consists solely of Alecia, Professor Gai, Cynn, and that Thom guy.

I defiantly like the variety of henchmen, but I am not asking or expecting “uber” henchmen, just balanced and minor improvements.

Silent Kitty · Jun 18, 2006, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Hench don't go afk in the middle of a battle and don't steal items that were assigned to you. They don't try to scam you, or spam the party chat with "My Health is 10000 of 10000." Now all they need a brain and better skills, and I might even be able to pass Kaineng Center with them, because they don't lag unlike me.

WasAGuest · Jun 18, 2006, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Adding more to the reasons we rather need improved henchmen:

GW is catered to the casual player. To me the casual player has limited time to play in "blocks" of time. Lets say he/she has two hours to burn in the evening. The player is enjoying playing a custom class mix that is working rather well for him/her and they find it fun. Since it's not the "posted FoTM" this person now spends an hour and a half "lfg". When they finally get into a group, they have 30 minutes to play. Now, how is that fun?

Quests are 100% doable with henchies, and I often take only henchies with me unless guildies are on. Missions are not so doable with henchies (VSquare, unless your a monk), though some are.

I agree that we don't need super henchies, but I think we would all like some semi-smart henchies that have the same sence that the mob AI does. We don't see the mobs dashing back and forth like fools "thinking about who to rez". The mob healers don't think they are 55 monks and try to tank. The mobs scatter when an AE goes off, henchies run to it and hug each other.

Another problem with the "reason" for dumb henchies is that some people refuse to take henchies along. I was with a guildie the other day and he likes PuGs, so he started building one. I have no problem with that, I just don't like spending the time for it, so we sat around for 20 minutes getting enough people. Finally, we had 5 out of 8 and descided to henchie the gaps. The second, and I mean the second, a hench was added two people dropped after saying "Not with hechies". We went with who was left and beat the mission. My guildie went back after the mission and saw the two that dropped still lfg. Improved AI would also help in that situation.

wilebill · Jun 18, 2006, 02:09 PM // 14:09

The henchies are great! The AI is not bad on the henchies, you just have to know how they work, and work along with them. Support the henchies, and all will go well.

Mr_T_bot · Jun 18, 2006, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

In all honesty, it is possible to program AI so that it is the Uber Player, the one that is better than... you!

It is possible to make it heal faster than any player, res more accurately, fight more intelligently, and not have "human error" like mashing the wrong key or forgetting to swap weapons.

But yes, as suggested in this thread, it's not in the best interests of the game to make it AI Wars. The AI is created to assist and to provide a viable companion, but not to supplant players who are real humans. (Pauses to consider: Are there "unreal" humans?

)

Guild Wars is a social game, and it encourages playing with others while making it entirely viable to play solo, if you wish. You have choices and those choices are pretty well balanced! The last thing we want to do is to make it the best choice of all to have a guild that consists solely of Alecia, Professor Gai, Cynn, and that Thom guy.

Yeah, more proof people at Arena Net don't play their own game.
1) Henchmen arn't as smart as the enemy AI, and those are the Tyrian henchmen. Don't get me started on the Canthan henchmen...

2) Guild Wars is a great social team game. Provided you are in a populated, active guild; arn't a Smiting Monk, Ritualist, Assassin, non-MM or SS Necromancer, or Mesmer; play in the popular areas. I don't know if anyone mentioned this to you but the Tyrian jungle? Empty as a bucket o' air. The desert, especially Elona's Reach? Botland, Tyria.

The problem is henchmen arn't viable companions because it is blatantly obvious their AI isn't that of the enemies you are fighting. Now granted, neither is most people's intelligence, but at least they can follow kill calls, will target important targets if you tell them, will not switch to a different monster when the one they are on is almost dead with 10% hp, and will not stand in AoEs if they can help it.

It is entirely in the best interest of the game to make henchman a really viable counterpart to humans because sometimes you just can't get a party either because there isn't anyone to party with or because you are the wrong class or wrong attribute centered. Well, I guess it is in the best interest of the game. People who can't find parties have no reason to play unless they want to abuse the game and play 55 solo characters (which Arena Net's half-assed attempts to fix have only hurt everyone but 55 players) so they can actually go out and play and kill stuff. If less people play, less bandwidth is used and you still have the money from the sale. Everyone wins!

Francis Demeules · Jun 18, 2006, 02:15 PM // 14:15

A thing for improvments... can we remove "Charge" for the Warrior Henchies? I dont think we need it in PvE. I know its useful to going faster but not in battle.

sinican · Jun 18, 2006, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Im a little confused and frustrated with the response of some of the other posters and from Gaile...

i means seriousely people have NOT been asking that the Henchies be Stronger just that they be Smarter

they reall do some extremely stupid stuff... most of which is not controlable...

main points

Henchies runing into agro without being directed to, for ressing
Henchies not stepping away from continual area dmg (mobs will move but hencies wont) the classic example of this is them standing in lava and stuff and never moving
Henchies attempting to res instead of attemting to keep the living members alive
henchies NEVER break an action to retriet

Ive been in situations where im dead and the stupid healer henchie is standing right next to me still trying to res the prot hecnh half a screen away that is in a mob instead of getting me back up... and not healing the other living members and 1 by one the rest of the party goes down while the healer hench is still trying to res the protector hench finally to the point where the healer hench is the only one left living with a slew of dead member surrounding here and STILL she insists on trying to res the prot hench that is half a screen away...

asking for them to be smarter is not asking them to be Uber

what exactly is wrong with these requested improbovements

Henchies will not move outside of agro/group range of party leader
Henchies will not attempt to res while other party members have lost more than 50% health instead the healer will attempt to heal first and when the party is at least above 50% health the healers will attempt to res the CLOSEST dead members while staing within agro range of the party leader
Henchies will move if targeted bt contual area dmg spells terain etc but not beyond the agro range of the party leader
henchies will NOT rebirth while being hostled ultimately ressing someone into an inescapable deadly game of ring around the rosey
henchies will respond more to radar pings and targeting pings... if you ping a dead member the healer hench will attempt to res if you ping a place on radar henchment will attempt to break agro to relocate to that positions...
when you call and action such as "Im using Flesh of My Flesh on..." the henchies will not attempt to res the same target

my BIGGEST thing here is just that Henchies should NOT move outside of agro range of the party leader

WasAGuest · Jun 18, 2006, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Oh and last thing to consider:

Chapter 3, 4 and so on. Lets say new players pick up during Chapter 4. They play through it and are wanting more to do with their characters. So they descide to go pick up Chapter 1 where it all started. How is the grouping situation going to be in Chapter 1 at that point; or Chapter 2? Poor Henchie AI could very well kill the past chapters for people wanting to still play there. Why would they play there? I mean, not everyone can henchie all the missions and can anyone imagine VSquare with all henchies on both sides?

Edit: spelling - I was still half asleep it seems.

sinican · Jun 18, 2006, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Pathetic...

it is really retarded that since the New res change that all henchies including the wars eles etc ALL STOP FRIGAN FIGHTING TO CONTINUALLY SPAM RES getting interupted over and over and over not doing any dmg because they stopp fighting to try to get 1 frigan person up before u know it you party is dropping 1 by 1 all the mobs are at full frigan health

yea thats severely under par AI and its really starting to piss me off

Former Ruling · Jun 18, 2006, 07:54 PM // 19:54

The AI Res Change was for the worse I have to say :\

Before they just waited like 5 minutes to rez you...not TOO annoying.

Now, it seems the Monk Henchies favor Rezzing you over Healing you, so they'll literally stop healing you if you are getting beat on, and start their Rezs BEFORE you actually hit the ground. The plus is that you are rezzed RIGHT as you hit the grounf most of the time (I said - the people in your party start their rezes BEFORE you actually die it seems), the bad side is that they probably could have just healed you and you wouldnt be dead in the first place, and half the team just drops what their doing when something important dies.

Bahumhat · Jun 18, 2006, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Its funny.

Me and my henchies go into this mob. I die and so does the earth hench and talon(talon too leet to die) but. they still manage to kill off the mob, and then res everyone.

Gaile Gray · Jun 18, 2006, 08:27 PM // 20:27

I just wanted to apologize if it appeared I was saying "The Henchies are just fine, no changes planned. " Believe me, the Henchmen are under frequent review; you have noticed that in the changes made over the recent months and you will continue to note that in the future. The whole system of Henchmen is high on our radar and always will be a focus in future development.

I do understand that most players are not asking for Uber Henchmen but instead are seeking improvements. I totally agree with you that improvement is possible and more importantly, the design team does, too. As a player, I've seen things I'd like to see made better, like control increases and more finely-tuned abilities. (I played about 7 hours yesterday, which could be seen as some sort of unintended proof that the devs do play their own game, eh?

) I sighed again last night at the henchie attacking instead of ressing, and at her hapless running around. I call it Sister Kai's "Where do I go? What do I do?" act, said in my best Scarlett O'Hara voice.

Anyway, I was experimenting and I may be mistaken and it was rather late -- and I will ask the designers and they'll probably look at me like I'm nuts

-- but when I pinged "I'm dead" it seemed to me that the Monk got the message and came and settled down to perform a res. Wishful thinking on my part? Coincidence? Perhaps. But if it was coincidence, what a great fine-tuning for the future, don't you agree? "Don't sit there futilely waving your wand, Cookie, come over here and res me!"

So point well taken, and added to the suggestion list I'm writing up this very hour: Improvements to henchmen are desired on many levels. And players believe that there is room for improvement without risking the loss of incentive to party with other players.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

brokenmonkey · Jun 18, 2006, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Gaile nice Idea, if u could ask them about that.. oh wow that would be the great est improvement to the henchies..

I can't believe no ones thought of that..
Ok so as soon as u ping they would stop what theyre doing to rez u. hmm
Its seems Ok and really useful!

brokenmonkey

Francis Demeules · Jun 18, 2006, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Sounds Ragers will spam alot to rez them then. I'm more interesting in their skills improvement though. Like I said before, I thing its useless to have "Charge" for warriors elite in PvE. Maybe giving Devona Dwarven Battle Stance. And try to stop Dunham spamming Distortion will we are off battle.

... And try not to let the healer going in front of you while you're a melee type. I found that quite annoying to see the healer go in the mobs and die there.

Fyre Brand · Jun 18, 2006, 08:58 PM // 20:58

I wouldn't want super uber henchies either, but I would like to see a couple things re-examined.

1. Rez: Stefen and Thom are using rez signets while the player and monk henchies are alive after battle is over. During battle this makes sense. I mean the monk isn't the one who should rez in battle so if Thom or Stefen burn a signet I wouldn't gripe so much. But them burning a signet after battle while I or the monk henches are rezzing is bad.

2. After the latest AI update the monk henches have turned around while I'm running from a swarm and left my aggro bubble to sit in the middle of the swarm and die while trying to rez.

3. Only in PvE the monk henches should use their appropriate attributes rez spell not the generic rez spell. Eg: Lina should use Rebirth, etc.

4. I know this has been requested before but I would reiterate it: There needs to be a basic command set for the henches and pets. What I mean is you need to be able to tell them to stay put, go on defensive, or aggro. Currently we can tell them to aggro by calling the target. The other two are necessary to perform tasks effectively. For example going on non-aggro/self heal for Bloodstone Fen mission bonus is critical.

The last one wouldn't give the henches unreal AI but perform tasks that any basic group should be able to perform. That is the party leader could call: "Everyone run through this, DON'T ATTACK." -or- "Everyone stay put while the ranger pulls the aggro." That way the group could be directied to a more strategic place to attack. Then normal AI could resume.

I don't think hench skill bars should be customizable nor do I think the battle AI needs a vast improvement. Once a targets called they do pretty darn good. Mostly the problems center around rezzing and a lack of general party control.

Bleidd · Jun 18, 2006, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Well at this point I've henched every mission in Prophecies, as well as Sorrow's Furnace. I can't say I've been able to do the same with a PuG. This isn't some "oh look at me and what I can do" post either; anyone can hench these, once you understand the hench AI and how to make the most out of it. It has its shortcomings, but when you know what those are its easy to be ready to compensate for them.

On another note, they're a helluvalot more mature, less likely to bail, less likely to whine, and don't mind those unexpected AFKs.

Evilsod · Jun 18, 2006, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Ah yes glorious henchman AI. There i am stood not far from the Eternal Grove near the Necro boss. Get jumped by a couple of groups, go to retreat. Danika resses the other monk henchman, fine, suits me... then stands there.

Why? The Necro boss was practically sat on the stupid **** Professor Gai. 3 Dead henchman, 2 in a perfectly safe place, 1 is certain death. Why the hell do they STILL try and res the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing monk/spirit henchman before the rest of them no matter what the danger is! *SORT IT F U C K I N G OUT!* If you haven't guessed Danika then ran head first into the necro boss, almost died in a single Deathly Swarm, ressed Gai, who instantly died again from a 2nd Deathly Swarm... and eventually i just left because i couldn't be arsed to carry on.

Divinus Stella · Jun 18, 2006, 11:07 PM // 23:07

I still take pugs over hench when possible, i get a lot of enjoyment watching nukers that spam healing breeze and flare, wammos that smite, rangers with firestorm, monks with beastmaster skills, assassins with mending and necros that copy bloodspike builds from observer. The only safe professions to get into a PUG is mesmer, i dont think ive seen a mesmer with a crap build yet.

sinican · Jun 19, 2006, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

I just wanted to apologize if it appeared I was saying "The Henchies are just fine, no changes planned. " Believe me, the Henchmen are under frequent review; you have noticed that in the changes made over the recent months and you will continue to note that in the future. The whole system of Henchmen is high on our radar and always will be a focus in future development.

I do understand that most players are not asking for Uber Henchmen but instead are seeking improvements. I totally agree with you that improvement is possible and more importantly, the design team does, too. As a player, I've seen things I'd like to see made better, like control increases and more finely-tuned abilities. (I played about 7 hours yesterday, which could be seen as some sort of unintended proof that the devs do play their own game, eh?

) I sighed again last night at the henchie attacking instead of ressing, and at her hapless running around. I call it Sister Kai's "Where do I go? What do I do?" act, said in my best Scarlett O'Hara voice.

Anyway, I was experimenting and I may be mistaken and it was rather late -- and I will ask the designers and they'll probably look at me like I'm nuts

-- but when I pinged "I'm dead" it seemed to me that the Monk got the message and came and settled down to perform a res. Wishful thinking on my part? Coincidence? Perhaps. But if it was coincidence, what a great fine-tuning for the future, don't you agree? "Don't sit there futilely waving your wand, Cookie, come over here and res me!"

So point well taken, and added to the suggestion list I'm writing up this very hour: Improvements to henchmen are desired on many levels. And players believe that there is room for improvement without risking the loss of incentive to party with other players.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

thanks Gaile,

please mention the issues we are having with the henchies running off from the group

and how the fighter henchies are not doing their jobs because they are trying to beat the healers to a res

:P

Fyre Brand · Jun 19, 2006, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bleidd

Well at this point I've henched every mission in Prophecies, as well as Sorrow's Furnace. I can't say I've been able to do the same with a PuG. This isn't some "oh look at me and what I can do" post either; anyone can hench these, once you understand the hench AI and how to make the most out of it. It has its shortcomings, but when you know what those are its easy to be ready to compensate for them.

On another note, they're a helluvalot more mature, less likely to bail, less likely to whine, and don't mind those unexpected AFKs.

I've henched every mission and almost every bonus in prophecies as well. Overall the hench AI isn't horrid. That doesn't mean there isn't a little room for improvement either. Overall the AI is great. There are just a few tweaks that could be made to make the hunt/mission a little smoother. If a player is using henches they should be rewarded for smart play not frustrated with quirky AI decisions. I think that is where a majority of the reasonable requests are stemming from.

Always, and I mean always people will complain no matter how good or well intentioned a game companies actions are (look at the recent bot report). Amidst that there is valid well intentioned feedback there to help the Dev Team improve game quality.